Yes, you are both onto something and although I was contemplating discussing this with the shrink first, you don't need to be a rocket-surgeon so see BOTH A & B are intermingled for me, at least on some level. Sex is the most personally dangerous trigger for me at this point.
[man... really laying all the cards on the table now.]
I went to NA yesterday and the same woman was there and those feelings were not present; however, there was another member, extremely attractive, who did not show up last time and thoughts crossed my mind. I didn't act on those thoughts or use them as an excuse to use.
On one level those thoughts are perfectly normal; however, I need to figure out where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable and keep that straight in my mind. If I can become more aware of where the line is for me, then I believe I can help avoid crossing it - which inevitably leads to a relapse for me.
I have briefly discussed this topic with the shrink before, but at this point I think it warrants being the primary subject to cover in our next session.
Perhaps thinking those thoughts are normal,
acting upon them is risky on on multiple levels....
1. your sobriety
2. salvaging your relationship ... already
at risk due to hidden truths.
Time to put a value on the both your sobriety and what you hope to maintain in your relationship and whether or not you are willing to risk either of the two. The fallout on either level would be quite costly to you on a personal level regarding recovery and your relationship standpoint.
Consider setting your boundaries as far away from that line as possible, as trying to ride that line too closely is sure to set you closer to risking both 1 & 2, which is far removed from the direction you are wanting to eventually find yourself.
Remember that you are solely responsible for the choices that you make ... so setting boundaries that best protect you from risk are in your best interest.
Good Luck ....
continued Strength and Peace ....
Michelle
Well, it's too early too tell but I seem to have more success in overcoming the addiction while being part of this community than in NA. By no means have I given up on NA as I have been in too few meetings for too short a period to realistically get enough information to make a decision.
I missed my appt with my shrink today because I thought it was at 3 (it was 1:30pm). I got on her schedule for Sat morning (great way to start the weekend!) as insurance will pay for 1x week. I need to discuss triggers (sex) and how to get the most out of NA. There is plenty of time to go over other emotional baggage I have another time.
ne thing is clear to me: CHANGING MY DAILY ROUTINE IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF RECOVERY. Waking up at the same time every morning, setting expectations of myself for each day, dedicating time to that which is important to me, and other things I can do to fundamentally change my lifestyle is one key to overcoming the addiction.
I read in another thread something I think is truly profound. And like most profound things, this is relatively simple:
Quote:
month 6= rehab, my decision [for me I needed to escape and move 5 hours from my old life for 28 days to see what would come of it-and I had no idea I was about to learn the lifeskills I needed to survive living in my own mind]the best one I will never ever forget:if you can alter a thought of using with in 15 seconds-for me it was as stupid and simple as thinking about the clock on the wall- then that thought of using, has turned into something else which turns into another..by the time your done forcing yourself to ask yourself what color is your favorite, you find yourself wondering what you might like to do with that color..just as if you hold onto that thought of taking a hit, within those 15 seconds if you dont find that determination and will inside of you to think of anything else, next thing you know instead of being on the defense of your addiction, you might find yourself falling into daydream of that SAME EXACT THOUGHT OF USING.
I need to incorporate this into my recovery plan as well.
Man, I've come a long way from the days of thinking "I can do this using shear willpower, on my own." I risked far too much and spent far too much $$$ on those f'ing white (more like yellow) pieces of crap.
John, Glad to see you are keeping up your resolve. Stay strong and keep learning. You are doing great. Good to see you growing and continuing forth on your road to recovery. Keep it up. I believe. -Jenni
month 6= rehab, my decision [for me I needed to escape and move 5 hours from my old life for 28 days to see what would come of it-and I had no idea I was about to learn the lifeskills I needed to survive living in my own mind]the best one I will never ever forget:if you can alter a thought of using with in 15 seconds-for me it was as stupid and simple as thinking about the clock on the wall- then that thought of using, has turned into something else which turns into another..by the time your done forcing yourself to ask yourself what color is your favorite, you find yourself wondering what you might like to do with that color..just as if you hold onto that thought of taking a hit, within those 15 seconds if you dont find that determination and will inside of you to think of anything else, next thing you know instead of being on the defense of your addiction, you might find yourself falling into daydream of that SAME EXACT THOUGHT OF USING.
I cant sugar coat the thread I wrote that on, and say that I honestly dont think about the feeling of being high from time to time, or all the other little things we attach ourselves to when using..but the best thing about this little work of art to relieve myself from the mindf*** I live with is that I can take my disguise any where I go. I can go to work, and if I for some addict reasoning of mine, I come up with this thought of cocaine on the brain...I can look at the texture of the ceiling, (wierd I know, but whatever works)and force myself to think about it..something about it, anything about it...I can reform the initial thinking, without even realizing it, into something that is so completely and udderly pathetic to think of..that I find myself giggling at myself for doing such, and if Im laughing I damn sure are not thinking of taking a hit.
When I was in rehab, I worked on this little strategy..and some days I was so sickly induced by WANTING to think about cocaine,(or other horrid sick thoughts my mind conjurs up here and there) that it seemed pointless and silly at times;alot harder than it really is...but if I want to change that thought, I will in fact find something to crush it, at least for now so that whatever that 'thoughts' results could come to, were not going to necessarily happen at that time.
John, you seem to be doing quite well, sorry I have missed time here with everyone...as far as the sex thing goes in the NA meetings-
SOLUTION- TRY GOING TO A FEW MENS MEETINGS.
its funny how much more willing and unafraid I am to share my voice in a meeting with the same sex.(which in fact has only been done 2x's)otherwise its a distraction to the mind, the new fresh mind, that is wandering from what is this person thinking of me, or what is that person doing with him, and oh yea, why am I here and what about that guy I met last week, who hinted a bit of intrests, who I dont see here tonight???.. or why is this person really talking to me...is it because they are ginuine or just trying me?...what will they think if I speak out, will that cute guy over there then know too much about me to ever think he might attempt to take me out?? ITS A WAR OUT THERE. And I found out that the more the bombs went off,(my thoughts) the more distraut and aggravated I got with the program and my recovery. So I had to try something else,(womens meetings) to at least let the fight calm for a while, so I might just actually learn something, and be able to go back to the same "war grounds" and NOT have to feel the same way I did before.
Let me tell you I am a woman, and have spoke with many women in the rooms---hint for ya..if a woman is coming on to you, or accepts your notions or even just so happens to read your mind and takes you home, or spends much time after the meetings talking to you about NON-meeting things(in a newly reformed addict)WHAT KIND OF WOMAN ARE YOU CONSIDERING FOR ONE SECOND TO ALLOW IN YOUR LIFE?? To have as an association that could possibly lead to your own uncomfortable thinking?? For now, is it worth that? Are you stable enough in your thinking to subside it so that it doesnt show or effect you on the way home?? (If not-IT COULD SPIN FAR OUT OF CONTROL, RESULTING TO YOU HAVING TO EITHER FACE HER OWN ISSUES-RELAPSE... OR CAUSING MORE PAIN OF YOUR OWN)
Because you must remember we are all alike in our thinking (addict behavior I am referring too) ,MAN OR WOMAN- and our thinking gets us where??? NOWHERE WE HAVE WANTED TO BE. Women are just as bad in meetings I have been too, whom also put men through he|l once they found something to cover the pain of recovering, and didnt get their way with it. I have seen women flaunt their sh*t, fall all over all the guys, wear 10 pounds of makeup with no class what-so-ever- and 2 weeks later they are no where to be found...sad story, but its factual. If we dont focus on what we dont have- we cant focus on how to get what we want.(if I didnt realize in the beginning of my recovery that I didnt have anything valuable to add to any significant relationship with a man-how would I focus on finding the happiness within myself to allow others in so that I could be available to another person in such a way that is important/If I didnt take consideration for the fact that I didnt have my resources=CRACK to fix me anymore, how would I come to the conclusion that I had to find other resources to live a life free from cocaine)
(JOHN IM NOT SURE THIS APPLIES BEING THAT YOU ARE MARRIED!)If we have a woman/man in our life, after a few months of recovery-(or he|l even a year for me) how are we supposed to think for ourselves the right way and really make a decision on what we think we want, when we dont even know how to get what we want just yet-but even still are contemplating taking whatever we can get- basic addict behavior- THAT LIKE YOU SAY, MUST CHANGE.
THE WOMEN YOU WOULD WANT TO PLACE YOURSELF IN ANY PERDICAMENT WITH WOULD BE THE ONE THAT SAYS HI,SPEAKS AT THE MEETINGS.. AND GOES TO HER GROUP OF WOMEN AND IS SERIOUS ABOUT HER SH*T.AND WHO DOESNT JUMP ON THE FIRST THING SHE SEES FIT TO FILL THAT VOID INSIDE THAT WE COME TO MEETINGS TO FILL ON OUR OWN... THE STRONG WOMEN IN THE PROGRAM ARE THE ONES YOU WANT TO PERSUE KIND CARING RELATIONSHIPS WITH- BUT IF THEY ARE SMART, THEY ARE WATCHING YOU NOW,AND CONSIDERATE OF A NEWCOMER, BUT BY NO MEANS IS JUMPING YOUR BONES BEING THE REASONING BEHIND GIVING YOU THE TIME OF DAY...AND IF YOU CONTINUE YOUR PATH, THEY WILL SURELY SEE YOU LATER.
PS. im sure im not telling you anything you dont already know,and maybe im way off the mindset you have precautious feelings towards when it comes to women-but these consequences and circumstances continue to run true.
EITHER WAY, IM PROUD OF THE ROAD YOU ARE TRAVELING, AND THE FEARS YOU ARE FACING, THE WAR YOU ARE FIGHTING,AND THE POSTS YOU SHARE.
_________________ ~what happens to a person is less significant than what happens within them~
Last edited by freedomisprecious on Dec 14, 2006 - 10:52 AM; edited 1 time in total
Men's meeetings sound like a good idea to me. Removing that associated temptation serves the purpose of not interfering with your efforts toward recovery, and not causing further threat to your marriage for the temptation of women.
In my area, there are very few NA meetings during the day. The one I'm going to is at noon. The others are 7, 8, 9pm which is harder to make given I haven't told my wife about my addiction (which I'm working on, see below). I'll check out a men's meeting nonetheless or see if I can get a handful of guys to go out for coffee or find someplace we can talk freely.
A person (okay, woman) I met at NA who recommended a psychiatrist (MD, prescribes meds; psychologist = traditional therapy) that specializes in people fighting crack addiction. Works across the street at a rehab center and does private practice 2x a week.
There's something positive I didn't expect to come out of NA: inside knowledge on medical professionals in the area that I otherwise probably wouldn't have found. She recommended a psychologist as well, $100/45mins, but doesn't take insurance.
She has been clean two years and was very enthusiastic about this guy. Mentioned he leads outpatient sessions and cuts through the BS pretty fast. I think I've going to give him a try and see how it goes. The current therapist seems sort of stuck at the 'go to 90 NA sessions in 90 days' thing which is growing old. I've been going every chance I get.
The other thing about the $100/45min guy... he's also a family counselor and Autumn F. told me he can probably help me get over this not telling my wife thing.
I'm on day 2 now and will say a prayer that you have within you Lord's strength and wisdom. I've been using only for a month or so, but it has taken hold like nothing else I've ever experienced.
It's all so pointless and there hasn't been one instance where I felt better after having fallen into it. If it doesn't make us happy, then what's the point?
This site is new to me and it's a godsend. Feeling connected and being able to confess this hideous addiction safely is just what we need. You have the power to change things within yourself, so keep up the good fight one moment at a time and please stay in touch. Good luck.
Congratulations on Day 2! As you will find, and undoubtedly already know, this is not something that can be overcome in a matter of weeks and this site is a wonderful resource to help you work through it.
This is the closest thing to a true battle between good and evil here on Earth. And this form of evil is of the most insidious kind, one of the most cunning of opponents, and seeks to destroy all that is good, wholesome, and true in our lives. And without tireless dedication and diligence, it cannot be defeated.
I’ve considered myself as one of the “good guys.” I seek to protect the weak and be merciless to the wicked.
But now, based on my actions – forget what I say or think – one could argue I am not on the side of good. The gate to Hades was opened when I took that first hit, which led to other things. And though I’ve turned my back on this, I have not yet walked out of that place through the gate and close it.
My resolve to quit gets stronger by the day. And one day soon it will reach a point that I can move past this and onto far better things...
John: I went to outpatient with a bunch of court ordered people who didnt want to be there, who came in drunk of their asses, high as kites...yet I still loved going, it kept me stable and started a new formation with in my ideas of getting clean. What Im tryin to impose is that I hope being that you have a chance to see a good physchologist, you will benifit 10 fold what I did from a good teacher and listener, in a room full of hatred and darkness. I also went to a phsycologist while attending the halfway house..and this woman told me like it was, get off my butt and face reality type sh*t, it was great! I would get angry with her, but she knew what the he|l she was talking about so I couldnt argue, only take reality as it comes and face the only option I have, live with it, around it, in it, (it:reality) etc...
DJ37:congrats on your day 2. one day clean leads to the chance of another day clean. one day dirty, and you might never have the chance to come back clean.
_________________ ~what happens to a person is less significant than what happens within them~
I've been clean for 10 days in a row and feeling better and better each day.
Research I've read mentions that, at least in the very early stages, there is a noticeable difference in the amount of effort it takes to stay clean in the first week relative to the end of the first month. Apparently, for most, there is a linear decline in the urge to use - each day is a little easier than the next.
Don't know how much truth there is to that - and can't cite the study without looking into it more - but it makes me feel a little better. It did seem to be the case the last time I was clean for several weeks.
I haven't counted the days but I suspect since my first post on this site 171 days ago, I've been clean about 75-85 of them. I had one entire clean month under my belt with several 7-10 stretches here and there during the period. More recently, my usage has dropped to 4-5x a month. So I've gone from being clean 43.8% of the time to 80.6%. [Sorry, I'm a numbers guy and those stats mean more to me than words.] If I can find the strength to stay clean those 4-5 days/mo that'll bring me to 100% clean. But those days it is a real MoFo to keep my head straight...
One of the things they say in NA is 'One hit is too many and 1,000 is never enough.' I just keep trying to remind myself I have never only taken one hit and even if I only buy $50 worth another $50 or $100 is soon to follow just as sure as night follows day.
I'm in San Francisco for the holidays visiting my brother and parents, along with the wife and kids, which makes for a real break from the temptation of using. If my resolve to stop were to fade, the fear of 'buying' from a dealer who is an undercover cop is enough to stop me from even trying. Plus, we're not downtown SF or that close to Oakland (probably the best places to look), which makes it even easier to stay clean. This is the closest thing to a vacation I've had in a long while, it seems.
On a different note, my shrink mentioned that if I didn't go to NA every day I was in Atlanta, she was going to stop seeing me. Her rationale was that avoiding NA and going to her was perpetuating the illusion I was 'getting help' though I 'really wasn't.' And she was going to have no part in that. On one level I sort of understand what she was saying, but it seemed to be an underhanded way of getting her point across. Yes, she feels strongly about NA. But we've wasted a lot of time talking about NA/outpatient, etc to the exclusion of understanding triggers, working on 'unlearning' the warped reality in which I was living, etc. In other words, I don't feel that she is indispensable in my journey to recovery though she apparently believes so (?).
And when I was discussing a) triggers, b) what was the catalyst for using in the first place?, and c) How could I more constructively deal with these issues, she somehow interpreted it as almost pathetic excuses for using, and essentially chastised me for not taking responsibility for my actions. Whoa. I've make it clear from the day I decided to seek professional help that I got myself into a ?/|\ bigger than me and I needed help to get out.
How that got turned around on me I can't understand. With this forum (or in an e-mail) it's a lot easier to be misunderstood because we can't see each others' faces, hear the tone of our voices, or read body language. In person - with a professional therapist - it would seem to be more difficult to misunderstand me to that degree, especially after seeing me for a couple months now.
As always, I'm open to recommendations but I'm inclined to find someone else - I'm certainly not abandoning using the resource of professional help. Oh, and yes, she does specialize in addiction though has no affiliation with any rehab center in the area.
For those who utilized professional help, was 75% or more of the time spent talking about NA and, now, getting outpatient treatment? Is it unrealistic for me to look to the therapist to help provide me with some of the tools for me to do the hard work necessary? If NA is so integral to overcoming addiction, in her opinion, and everything else is contingent upon that, then what role is she supposed to play? Any insights people may have on this are much appreciated. And if the answer is, "John, you're really f'd up and if she is telling you these things you need to just put that big ego of yours aside, shut up, and do what she says. This is a widely accepted route to recovery you just need to follow" I can accept that (though it will suck).
I hope that everyone had a peaceful and restful holiday and will have a great new year.
Long time utopia about superiority of 12 steps methods compare to any other was analyzed in this study:
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005032.html
A review of studies conducted by Ferri M, Amato L, Davoli M shows found no clear evidence that 12-steps modeled groups were better than the others
There was study done a few years ago:
http://www.cocainehelp.org/mod-subjects ... id-56.html
The result of this study suggest that people with high abstract reasoning were more successful with Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT) compare to 12 steps environment.
Relatively, people with low abstract reasoning done better in 12 steps.
People with high religious believes done equally successful in CBT or 12 steps; however, people with low religious believes done much better in CBT.
About your therapist, people, who became a drug addiction specialist through an unfortunate personal experience with drug addiction and went trough 12 steps will be always loyal to 12 steps. Well, there are growing concern about cult nature of 12 steps, but since drug addiction treatment so heavily relayed on 12 steps organizations, this tendencies have been overlooked.
PS. Numbers of psychologists had been fired because of opposition to 12 steps doctrine.
_________________ Your Admin, Gene. -=People who ask our advice almost never take it. Yet we should never refuse to give it, upon request, for it often helps us to see our own way more clearly. =-
Last edited by Admin on Dec 31, 2006 - 04:23 AM; edited 1 time in total
John, The therapist I see for support has a specialty in addictions. He is quick to acknoweldge the benefits and pitfalls of twelve step groups. One thing that he always reminds me of...no matter what...is that
HELP IS WHERE YOU FIND IT.
We have talked about his many times on these forums. Everyone is unique. If something from the 12 step model is useful to you....take it and use it. If something from the model presented in the crackbusters workbook is useful to you...take it and use it. If support from cognitive behavioral therapist is useful to you...use it. If you are feeling unsupported by your therapist. I would have two things to say....it never hurts to tell them about it and discuss why you are feeling that way....and two...feeling supported by your therapist is essential to the process....so if you do not feel that she can be supportive of you...and issues that YOU feel are important to YOUR recovery...then finding someone that will help you is not unreasonable. Keep in mind that when it comes to addiction...therapists will confront you on things....especially on denial or resistance...to help the patient break through self-imposed barriers to change. I know you have been working hard on your recovery efforts...and have the mind to explore all facets of your addiction and tools to help you on your road to recovery. I hope that you will be able to find some answers to this dilemma and I hope that you will seek help...where you find it. The most important thing is that the help you find....lends itself to YOUR recovery efforts...and helps you learn strategies to prevent slipping back into old patterns. Wishing you continued success on your journey.
Lynn, I would be very pleased if you shared with me your thoughts on my current situation. And thanks Jenni, the 'help is where you find it' observation is a very sound one that I relate to well. I also like the idea of talking with the therapist about why I am giving serious consideration to a change... Perhaps it will lead to what her sharing what she was trying to accomplish or information that leads to the conclusion we are not a good fit.
As you may already know, it takes time for a therapist to get to know you, even if only from the perspective of understanding factual details about your life and how you got to where you are, which I would rather not do if it is avoidable.
I haven't read the works cited by Gene as of yet, but plan to do so prior to my next session. Separately, I went through an 8-wk intensive CBT program for anxiety disorder where the founder of CBT once worked. Honestly, it didn't seem to make a lasting change for some reason. I would think these people would be among the best in the country to help when it comes to applying CBT, but that's probably untrue.
The bottom line is that I'm clean, feel more committed to overcoming this beast than ever, and am continuing to seek a treatment approach that works best for me. Believe that is a great way to start the new year.
One observation the therapist made was that I need to 'reclaim my soul.' I first opened the door to one thing I consider immoral, then opened the door a little wider, and then opened it more to the point that got me here. Slippery slope... Closing that door somehow gives me strength to continue pushing it harder. Just as the negative feeds on itself, so has the positive.
Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts... I'll keep you posted.
Warm regards and Happy New Year,
John
Home
Contact Us
Search
Chat Rooms
Forum
Disclaimer & Policies
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Preferences
Members List
Fun Store
Watched Topics
Sub-Forum
